Is it wrong to eat meat?

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Is it really wrong to eat meat? My mind often dwells on this issue and I wanted to share some thoughts I’ve been having.

The Native American Indians were extremely spiritual people and there are writings that show just how much…

Beautiful poems about the “great spirits” and the wonder of nature. In the movie The Last of the Mohicans we see the killing of a deer and the great honour, respect and thanks given to the creature and sadness that it was necessary for survival…

I know… it’s just the movies but I’m guessing this was well researched, I can imagine that’s the way it was…

Quite often though, we see that the eating of meat is at odds with spiritual cultures although certainly not all. Some do allow the eating of meat. It makes you wonder about the oft used Genesis quotation…

“Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.”

It’s unlikely that these cultures have overlooked the bit in Genesis. Apparently, the other bits in the bible where we are instructed to eat meat is due to our continuing ‘fall’ or something like that. Hmmm… more confusion.

I came across something a while back that really made me think. We think of vegetarianism as being more ‘humane’ and yet the harvesting of cereal crops kills countless little mammals and nesting birds that have taken up residence. Now, if we were all to give up grains, there would be tons more fruit trees and that would be great for nature and the top-soil erosion problem.

The growing of vegetables would have the same problem though maybe with the mechanized harvesting in the modern world. Vegans folks have also told me that the dairy industry is far more cruel than the meat industry in its treatment of animals.

Cute, frolicking lambs

Come spring, we see the little frolicking lambs and all say ‘ahhhh’ together. Don’t we just love them? It touches our hearts to see new life, lambs, baby seals, little kittens, just about any baby. But I wonder if this isn’t cultural…

Farmers it seems who are not cut off from the realities of life don’t have this sentimental viewpoint. The fact that we never get involved in the killing softens our hearts to the realities of life certainly as they exist today.

In a Jamie Oliver programme where he travels Italy, the youngsters are involved in the nitty gritty of eating meat from a very young age.

On the clip I saw, they were preparing a wild boar that they’d just shot. It wasn’t pretty and the children didn’t like it much.

The question is: Which scenario is true? Is our love of the animals ‘human’ and killing truly abhorrent to us? Or is the opposite true — that eating meat is natural and we’ve all become soft!?

In The Power of Now: A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment, Eckhart Tolle explains…

“If a fish is born in your aquarium and you call him John, write out a birth certificate, tell him about his family history, and in two minutes he gets eaten by another fish — that’s tragic. But it’s only tragic because you projected a separate self where there was none. You got hold of a fraction of dynamic process, a molecular dance, and created a separate entity out of it.”

But the same folks who might cry for John are not crying for the trout they have on their dinner plate.

(Eckhart Tolle isn’t vegetarian by the way, according to his partner Kim Eng, he “eats anything.”)

Also, our sentimentality seems to be selective. Its sad for a little lamb to die but not for a fly or a wasp. Seems the better looking the creature is, the more we love it. Hmmm…

The native Maori were keen and able fishermen that had a fondness for… I think it was octopus or squid stomachs… what it was doesn’t really matter here, only the point that in their culture, they had no problem with pulling a squid out of the water, taking out its stomach there and then and eating it with gusto.
My own mind is not made up…

In my heart I’m just like everyone else who says ‘ahhhh’ when they see a baby lamb. Is it cultural? Who knows… not me. I guess we all have to make our own choices. The spirituality issue is not clear either, I recently read about one guy who claims he couldn’t ‘make progress’ as a vegan and has never felt ‘closer to God’ now he eats meat. Go figure.

Certainly the current treatment of farm animals is shoddy to downright inhumane and that in itself is probably enough to think about being vegan. But it’s really a separate issue. Farming animals does not necessarily need to be cruel. It just is at the moment. You could certainly source your food from people you know and trust. I get my eggs from my neighbor’s daughter who keeps them in her garden.

Given that it’s undeniable that we came from a meat-eating ancestry in the stone age, the issue is certainly not cut and dried. Perhaps seeking out local organic small holdings is the way to go if you choose to have animal products.

The compassionate hunter?

These cultural norms may stem from a need to stay healthy. Whether we need animal foods and what foods they replaced in our diet is a whole other subject. Even some vegan advocates are today looking into whether some humans are “obligate carnivores” and have a biological need for some animal foods.

It’s hard to square it all away — are we really the paradoxical “compassionate hunter”?

I have a theory — it may pan out to be true even :-) There’s this thing called the “Savannah Hypothesis,” you know, we left the trees and scavenged the savannah way back when — millions of years ago.

Well, I reckon for millions of years, pre-humans lived off bone marrow and brains of dead things, along with whatever fruits and seeds and leaves they could find. Bear with me here…

If you think about it, it solves all the puzzles. Bone marrow and brains are rich in essential fats that would have allowed the massive development in our brains to get us to where we are today. Also, it involves no killing, so at that point there was no need for a killing instinct (we still don’t have it).

Also, and this is massive — marrow and brains are an almost inexhaustible supply of food that no other animal can get at. Apes, as we were back then, have the advantage — opposable thumbs and a good intelligence.

So, we were probably the only creature that could harvest this natural resource and it didn’t involve killing anything.

I’ve studied tribal cultures quite a bit and hunters will often eat the marrow as a treat or reward after a kill (as well as the raw liver!). One reporter tried marrow for the first time and loved it straight away — so it seems we have the taste for it too.

As far as the lambs vs. wasps thing goes, I reckon we connect more deeply with the lamb than the wasp, and also of course, the lamb won’t sting us! But I know people who won’t hurt even a fly — just instinctively.

So what to do?

Again we all have choices, and science needs to get up to speed and figure out precisely what effect long-term vegan diets have.

When putting together the Happy Guide diet, I needed it to be healthy, practical and appealing to the mainstream, so it does include meat, fish, eggs etc. The alternative would simply have put off too many people.

Is it wrong to eat meat? If you have any views that would give clarity to the issue, it’d be great to hear from you. Please leave a comment below.

Best wishes,
Michael Kinnaird

8 thoughts on “Is it wrong to eat meat?

  1. There is a lot of spiritual and scientific information of what we should and should not be doing with our lives. The fact is, if you have been a little convinced by some media brain-washing and follow through on that even if your ‘heart’ isn’t really in it, you’ll never actually succeed with that change. It should not be the preachings of other folks that turns you towards a change but instead, your inner self that decides the change. My dad would never give up meat, even though he absolutely loves animals, his heart just would not be in it :-)

  2. I’ve thought about it a lot also, at least in philosophy. Bottom line for me, beyond just compassionate guilt was always a deontological guilt. Which people with ocd are more sensitive to. A sort of “do not play god” guilt.

    To me it’s always symbolized an ultimate selfishness and egotism, even narcissism. Even if it actually would be “needed”, it still would come down to a “it’s either you or me kid. so much better that it’s YOU!” Looking at a beautiful deer or whatever and telling it “you have to give up your life for me cause my life is far more important than yours. I am far more important than you”. Talk about egotistic! And that’s only one of them, have to take out many of them.

    And now days it’s not even that since we can clearly survive without it. So then it comes down to, even if all of the arguments of many meat eaters are correct, that we could have the most ULTIMATE health by sacrificing animals, then it is even more egotistical and narcissistic. The whole, “I’m better than you, and me feeling slightly better or living slightly longer or whatever is far more important than you living at all”. “And in fact it’s ok if you’re tortured for my benefit of this minor improvement to my so entirely important life and superior importance over you.

    How is that not all about ego and selfishness?

    When you talk about human’s attitudes of competition against each other and a “dog eat dog” attitude, it’s exactly the same thing. Only out for ourselves and better the animal die than us, or to improve a little more quality of our lives.

    I know other animals eat each other, though that seems more instinctual than calculated like it is for us, and we have a lot more choices than they do. Those choices and calculations make it feel like it is playing god to me. Thus the deontological guilt.

    As far as the arguments about wasps and such, they don’t make sense. There is an undeniable hierarchy of life on the planet, it’s not a bias, it’s scientific. There is far less life qualities in a bacteria than a whale. No amount of slicing the technicalities of what constitutes “living” could erase such common sense knowing. Even a child gets that.

    1. “To me it’s always symbolized an ultimate selfishness and egotism, even narcissism.”

      Eckhart Tolle eats anything, he has no ego. So did Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and he smoked, wasn’t concerned about it. Life eats life, there is only one life, we are all part of it, and soon enough, the worms and grass will eat me and the cycle is complete. The carnivores are the most intelligent… whales, dolphins, wolves, lions… the ones at the top of the food chain who can afford intelligence because they have densely nutritious diets.

      “it’s either you or me kid. so much better that it’s YOU!” Looking at a beautiful deer or whatever and telling it “you have to give up your life for me cause my life is far more important than yours. I am far more important than you”.

      I once saw 12 wolves kill a baby moose/elk/caribou type animal while the mother defended. One wolf would draw mom off while the others nipped in. It was hard to watch, and of course I sided with the beautiful caribou. But what of those cute and furry little wolf cubs starving back at the den? Whose side should we be on? I blame a lot on Walt Disney.

      “And now days it’s not even that since we can clearly survive without it.”

      I get your point of view, it’s the way I saw things too at one point, but it’s a very narrow view, not seeing rightly, not understanding nature, life. One could argue that the greatest thing a cow did for its survival was to be food for humans. I mean… the world is full of them, they are now the #1 dominant herbivore on the planet! Life is an interplay of forms all eating each other and existing in an exquisite balance. Nature easily achieves perfection, we should look at that and harmonize with it. How would you improve on nature? Stop the whale eating the fish, stop the wolf eating the cute baby deer? We imprint our human perspective on everything, but leave nature alone, and the result is not cruel, it’s abundant, vibrant, healthy, dynamic. WE are the fly in the ointment, not because we eat animals, but because we have isolated ourselves from nature, we put cows in CAFOs instead of fields, pump them full of hormones, homogenize, blah blah all for the mighty dollar.

      “When you talk about human’s attitudes of competition against each other and a “dog eat dog” attitude, it’s exactly the same thing. Only out for ourselves and better the animal die than us, or to improve a little more quality of our lives.”

      Dog live with dog, and cow, sheep, bird, pig, and we all be and do what we naturally are. That ain’t millions of endless acres of wheat or canola… which is death by extermination and then death by not existing year after year, and more death by soil loss and more death by chemical run off. ETC.

      “I know other animals eat each other, though that seems more instinctual than calculated like it is for us, and we have a lot more choices than they do. Those choices and calculations make it feel like it is playing god to me. Thus the deontological guilt.”

      I would like to see animals living natural lives. Behaving naturally, not at our whim and mercy but given a crack at life, to be part of the nature of things, to let species evolve in the natural way. That is possible, it’s not just a pipe dream. Even in Greece where people live traditionally, there are chickens wandering around doing their thing. It feels good that. And we can put back what we take out the ocean, manage it, not just take, take, take.

      “As far as the arguments about wasps and such, they don’t make sense. There is an undeniable hierarchy of life on the planet, it’s not a bias, it’s scientific. There is far less life qualities in a bacteria than a whale. No amount of slicing the technicalities of what constitutes “living” could erase such common sense knowing. Even a child gets that.”

      Yeah, the hierarchy is that the carnivores are the smart ones. The higher up the food chain, the bigger your brain can get. Humans are actually devolving, getting less intelligent, because our diets suck :-)

  3. “Eckhart Tolle eats anything, he has no ego. So did Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, and he smoked, wasn’t concerned about it.”

    And that proves… What? Some middle aged British guy who has been eating animals his entire life, suddenly has a suicidal mid life crisis, decides not to kill himself and instead to practice mediation and mindfulness to get peace of mind instead. Then writes some books, gets good or lucky at getting lots of press, carving a niche for himself and getting famous off rehashing the same stuff said about mindfulness for millennia (nothing unique). Now all of a sudden he’s some enlightened spiritual saint and ultimate authority on all things “spiritual” and the “right and wrong” ways to behave?

    And the whole “no ego” thing… let’s just go with some authoritative dictionary definitions there.

    ” the division of the psyche that is conscious, most immediately controls thought and behavior, and is most in touch with external reality.
    a.
    the enduring and conscious element that knows experience.
    b.
    Scholasticism. the complete person comprising both body and soul.”

    In other words, anything that possesses conscious intelligence and awareness…

    So if he has no ego… maybe he’s not part of the intelligent conscious lifeform…

    There are many different philosophical and religious beliefs and many different people that others ‘follow’. Naming any specific one does nothing to prove they are the right one and all the others are the wrong ones…

    Though of course there is always the age old famous question “What would Jesus do?”…

    http://www.godsdirectcontact.org.tw/eng/news/210/ve_38.htm

    “The carnivores are the most intelligent… whales, dolphins, wolves, lions… the ones at the top of the food chain who can afford intelligence because they have densely nutritious diets.”

    lol! sorry again, though that is funny.

    Primates are among the most intelligent animals on the planet. Humans, Chimps, Orangutans, etc. They are not carnivores.

    Humans are definitely one of the most intelligent animals on the planet that we know of. Humans are also not carnivores. If anything, humans are omnivores. Then there was once this vegetarian homo animal sapien named Einstein…

    “Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.” (Albert Einstein)

    Then you are forgetting the herbivore animals that are at the top of intelligence hierarchies. Like Elephants, horses, etc.

    The omnivore dogs and pigs also rank very high.

    Dolphins always rank high, though wolves and lions I never see on any top 10 lists of smarts…

    All which goes to show… there are no correlations between the smartest species and their diets.

    “I once saw 12 wolves kill a baby moose/elk/caribou type animal while the mother defended. One wolf would draw mom off while the others nipped in. It was hard to watch, and of course I sided with the beautiful caribou. But what of those cute and furry little wolf cubs starving back at the den? Whose side should we be on? ”

    Why would you need to be on either side? It’s not your battle. Doesn’t concern you.

    Though, for arguments sake, what if it was a baby human the wolves were after? Would you more or less be on the wolves side?

    In a competition of any sort someone loses and someone wins. Who’s side of the competition any particular person or being is on depends on their position in it, how it effects them or their bias.

    “I get your point of view, it’s the way I saw things too at one point, but it’s a very narrow view, not seeing rightly, not understanding nature, life. ”

    What am I not understanding about life? That I have survived my entire life, over 30 years already without consuming animals? Am I dreaming that I’m still alive and can still think and reason? Am I dreaming that I survived this long?

    “One could argue that the greatest thing a cow did for its survival was to be food for humans. I mean… the world is full of them, they are now the #1 dominant herbivore on the planet! ”

    Only because humans have unnaturally bred them to be that overpopulated! You think it is natural for cows to have that high of a population on their own? Did they before farming and domesticated agriculture? No…

    You think it is healthy for the planet for them to be that overpopulated? No…

    You think the more they kill the more they’ll bring down these unnaturally high populations while they simultaneously keep breeding them at faster rates than they kill them at? No…

    So… how are humans eating and breeding them helping their over population?

    Hmm…. lets ruminate on that thought… (pun intended) : )

    “That ain’t millions of endless acres of wheat or canola…”

    Most of which is grown to feed the endless acres of cows…

    “I would like to see animals living natural lives. Behaving naturally, not at our whim and mercy but given a crack at life, to be part of the nature of things, to let species evolve in the natural way. That is possible, it’s not just a pipe dream. Even in Greece where people live traditionally, there are chickens wandering around doing their thing. It feels good that.”

    Sure, it’s possible. What is not possible is to stop the mindless machines doing what they’ve been doing. It’s terrible. Though lets face it, it’s efficient, cheap, and produces mass quantities to meet the mass demands of the massively overpopulated humans…

    “And we can put back what we take out the ocean, manage it, not just take, take, take.”

    Can’t put back all extinct species… they’re extinct.

    “Yeah, the hierarchy is that the carnivores are the smart ones. The higher up the food chain, the bigger your brain can get.”

    Elephants have the largest brain of any land animal…

    “Humans are actually devolving, getting less intelligent, because our diets suck :-)”

    Yeah, they’ll be overtaken by the orangutans soon… ;-)

  4. “And that proves… What? Some middle aged British guy who has been eating animals his entire life, suddenly has a suicidal mid life crisis, decides not to kill himself and instead to practice mediation and mindfulness to get peace of mind instead. Then writes some books, gets good or lucky at getting lots of press, carving a niche for himself and getting famous off rehashing the same stuff said about mindfulness for millennia (nothing unique). Now all of a sudden he’s some enlightened spiritual saint and ultimate authority on all things “spiritual” and the “right and wrong” ways to behave?”

    It proves that an egoless human who experiences deeply divine state “eats anything.” You clearly don’t know Eckhart Tolle, he had a spontaneous awakening caused by intense suffering. One day suicidal, next day enlightened, quite a turnaround. Same story with Byron Katie, who also continued to eat her normal diet. She stopped eating meat later because she said it made her tongue bleed, it wasn’t because of some spiritual insight. In fact Eckhart Tolle talks about seeing the unity of life, and Byron Katie describes the experience of eating as “me eating me.”

    “And the whole “no ego” thing… let’s just go with some authoritative dictionary definitions there.”

    No, let’s go with how the word is actually USED, to describe a false self-image e.g…

    West admits that his ego has reached giant proportions.
    Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it.
    He is a small man with a big ego .
    He is large of ego, full of money and cranky in mien.
    All the rest is a matter of ego feeding.
    There was no ego involved with anyone in this movie.
    They stroked my ego, and I swallowed the bait.
    Coffee-table photo books can sometimes come across as ego -stroking doorstops.
    Probably my ego needed deflating, and the deflation wasn’t long in coming.

    “There are many different philosophical and religious beliefs and many different people that others ‘follow’. Naming any specific one does nothing to prove they are the right one and all the others are the wrong ones.”

    Eckhart Tolle and Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj are the real deal, they speak from deep knowledge, not philosophy. Their authority comes from authenticity, integrity, not from ideas but from deep knowledge. Neither is or was concerned about eating animals.

    “Though of course there is always the age old famous question “What would Jesus do?”

    Jesus said “Hear and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man, but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.”

    There is much debate about Jesus and many points of view. I wonder why if vegetarianism is so important, why no clear dictate? Why not just be clear about it… “blessed are the vegetarians, for they will find the kingdom of God.”

    “Though, for arguments sake, what if it was a baby human the wolves were after? Would you more or less be on the wolves side?”

    I am sure I would save the child.

    “You think it is healthy for the planet for them to be that overpopulated?”

    http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change

    “Most of which is grown to feed the endless acres of cows…”

    I think we can agree cows should eat grass.

    1. “It proves that an egoless human who experiences deeply divine state “eats anything.” You clearly don’t know Eckhart Tolle, he had a spontaneous awakening caused by intense suffering. One day suicidal, next day enlightened, quite a turnaround. Same story with Byron Katie, who also continued to eat her normal diet. She stopped eating meat later because she said it made her tongue bleed, it wasn’t because of some spiritual insight. In fact Eckhart Tolle talks about seeing the unity of life, and Byron Katie describes the experience of eating as “me eating me.””

      lol. I highly doubt that Byron Katie would feel the same way about ACTUALLY eating herself (or her young for that matter) and never would! People talk a lot of… fluff.

      I know who Eckhart Tolle is and have read some of his books and watched his videos. I don’t know him personally, sure. Though from what I have seen, I wasn’t that impressed and didn’t really read anything new. I’ve read many Eastern philosophy books and writings about that type of mindfulness and Zen Buddhism etc. The Peaceful Warrior is also about that type of wakeful mindfulness and “enlightenment”, though that Dan guy preaches Vegetarianism actually.

      Like I said, there are many different ‘beliefs’, and also many different ‘definitions’. Simply people throwing around words like “awakened” or “enlightened” really mean nothing… According to WHO? Defined HOW? Nothing except opinions that those ‘qualities’ or ‘perceptions’ or ways of thinking or philosophies etc are all that… or define “enlightenment”.

      There are also many ‘enlightened’ Buddhist Monks, lots of ‘enlighten’ spiritual ‘saints’ etc. that don’t eat animals and believe it’s extremely important to their spiritual practice not to.

      “There is much debate about Jesus and many points of view. I wonder why if vegetarianism is so important, why no clear dictate? Why not just be clear about it… “blessed are the vegetarians, for they will find the kingdom of God.””

      “The truth of the matter is that the Hebrew gospels did not portray Jesus as eating fish or Passover lamb, and in those gospels, John the Baptist did not eat any insects. Paul’s group had their literature, but so did the Ebionites, the Hebrew Christians. There were pro meat gospels, as we all know, but there were also vegetarian gospels: the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, the Gospel of the Ebionites, and other Ebionite literature including the Clementine Homilies and the Recognitions of Clement. These are not channeled or recently composed writings, but scriptures that have long been known to scholars and were used by other branches of Christianity from the Middle East in antiquity. Sometimes these books are called “extra-canonical writings” or “lost books of the Bible.” These are books of someone else’s Bible; in other words, sacred texts once used by other forms of Apostolic Christianity long ago in Israel, Syria (Mesopotamia), Turkey (Asia Minor), Egypt, Ethiopia, the Mediterranean region, etc.”
      http://www.innertapestry.org/columns/exploring-religion/1068-evidence-that-jesus-and-the-original-aramaic-christians-were-vegetarians.html

      “No, let’s go with how the word is actually USED, to describe a false self-image e.g…”

      Only in the sense of an unhealthy inflated and distorted ego. And yeh it is commonly used in that sense, thrown around just using the word “ego” to actually refer to “unhealthy, inflated and distorted ego” AKA “insecurity that is attempted to be compensated for”. Or self absorption, narcissism etc. And over preoccupation with accumulating self validation and assurances.

      Mainly, I think it has to do with people’s innate needs for love and connection and all the dysfunction and distorted ideas that come with trying to attain those feelings and avoid rejection. Interestingly enough, in a light of evolutionary psychology, with humans being natural social creatures and pack animals, this type of insecurity and need for external validation serves a very important survival mechanism. Insecurity has greatly served the survival of man and made man better socially and as team players.

      With the need for approval and fear of rejection, it has served to make man adapt their behaviors to win approval of others in the pack through cooperation and giving, not just taking. The fear of rejection from the group made man strive to be better liked and to have more to offer the group and the opposite sex. Rejection group from the group meant… left behind to fend for oneself and get eaten by the lion! This fear and need is still deeply engrained in the psych of man. Rejection almost equals death… We need each other.

      From the perspective of nature and survival, natural selection etc. it isn’t a bad thing at all! Ego is not a bad thing. There is not only evolution of the body or evolution of diet. Though also a lot of evolution of the mind and knowledge and advancement of tools, technology and societies.

      Then there is selfishness and greed… which is completely different from insecurity of approval and fitting in or ego etc. Selfishness and greed mostly comes from an insecurity of resources and direct insecurity of survival. A scarcity mindset. The more man gets for himself and the more he collects and stores, the more buffer he has for survival and the more he can provide for his family for their survival. So the more he is seen as a valuable member of the group.

      There are different genes also for diversity. In the group of human societies and evolution, it’s always been needed for people to be of different types and behaviors. Those who are more selfish and have little natural inclination to feel guilt or compassion etc. And those who are more selfless, more easily feel guilt and want to give etc. And those with larger egos for their leadership motivations. All groups need leaders.

      So, far from being such a bad thing, despite all of the dysfunction and corruption these qualities have as side effects, especially in modern life. They have important survival and evolutionary purposes and have helped to ensure man’s survival of species, advance man and tools and technology and everything etc. Same with competition and capitalism. It’s the way man is wired.

      All that is not “evil” anymore than the lion eating the zebra is “evil”. It’s all just nature.

      “Ego” is only bad when it is inflated and dysfunctional.

      A HEALTHY ego is a good thing. That is just about self respect. Respecting and loving yourself and taking care of yourself. Not letting others take advantage of you, standing your ground, defending yourself (socially and physically), and ensuring your own survival.

      If someone thinks they need to eat (whatever diet) to be healthy and survive and they do so, that is part of their ego (healthy ego) to respect themselves and ensure their own survival. If they didn’t have that ego, they would feed themselves to the wolves! Ego gives survival instinct.

      So, yeh, I take issue when it is claimed that someone “is egoless”, when it’s incorrect and all they really mean is they have no dysfunctional inflated ego.

      I take issue with “ego” itself being made out to be evil and something to get rid of. Especially when it is contradicted with claims about evolution and nature etc. being good things and beautiful or whatever. It’s all part of the same nature and wiring, behavioral science.

      Spiritual beliefs which go beyond this world and body and nature and wiring… then just nature.

      Quite the duality I suppose…

      As far as my own beliefs… it seems it is all just a sick game! Give man all of these natural instincts and needs and desires and harsh survival and then punish them spiritually for not being able to raise above them or reject them and all the “temptations” of the world or w/e.

      Then confuse them with various “teachings and philosophies and beliefs”, though keep them in the dark about what is even actually true or real.

      I don’t like games and mysteries, especially unfair ones. This world is so overrated anyways!

      So whatever happens happens then…

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